Reverse Engineering UFO Technology Hard Truths /w Ryan Wood

Hey everybody, welcome to another Hard Truths podcast. Today my guest is Ryan Wood, the son of Bob Wood, investigator of the M8 MJ12 documents and UFO lore. His father was an aerospace engineer that researched UFOs. And we're going to find out all about it. Ryan, thank you so much for coming on my show, sir. How are you doing? >> I'm doing great, Ashton. Thank you for the opportunity to uh share my insights with everybody. >> Oh, we're looking forward to it.

So, I think the first question that we want to understand is what is it that you and your father, you know, spent your time and effort doing to research into the UFOs? Um, you know, what did you discover on this journey and what do you want people to know? What is the biggest takeaway that you've learned in in your endeavors? Yeah, those are uh complicated, but let me start with sort of the origin story of of this. I mean um my father worked at Douglas Aircraft Company.

He was a rocket scientist and a PhD in physics from Cornell. and he um uh his boss came into his office one day and said, "Well, what are we going to do for the retirement of General Shrivever, who is a big uh intercontinental intercontinental ballistic missile expert?" And uh and he whimsically responded, "Well, we're going to tell him how the UFOs do it, how they gain gravity control." And his boss said, "That's a great idea. Work that up." Uh so he read like 50 UFO books in the mid60s or so.

And then uh he was giving a presentation to um his management and they they said, "What have you been doing for fun, Bob?" And I said, "Well, um I've uh I've read 50 UFO books and there's only one question left. Are we going to figure out how gravity works before or after Lockheed does?" And they said, "Well, how much money do you want for that?" And he said, "You know, five million. What?

5 million bucks in that in today's money which is like 600k back then. Um and so they fired up a team uh for a couple years inside Douglas Aircraft Company and they hired Stanton Freriedman. They did um uh gravity uh counterrotating gravity experiments. They tried to change the speed of light. They interviewed uh uh abductees. Um they had a van equipped with u instrumentation and magnetometers out in the Mojave Desert.

And so I mean as a um a 12-year-old uh I remember going out to the middle of the desert with uh sitting in these little tiny you know cinder block shacks and strip chart recorders and uh you know looking for UFOs. Uh so that was my first sort of exposure to the topic and and Stanton Friedman coming home to dinner and you know the I got exposed to it early as a as a teenager. Um and I I sort of this is what my dad does is sort of like yeah okay fine you know.

Uh and it wasn't really till later in life um you know after I've had a you know fairly robust corporate career in college uh that uh I reconnected and we started investigating um the majestic documents the primarily the first big leak of uh the special operations manual extraterrestrial entities technology recovery and disposal a real mouthful. um in 1994 when that was uh that was leaked and then uh so I I've been actively in this field at at high intensity and and low intensity for the past 40 years.

Um so that's sort of the the the background of how I got involved and how my dad got involved. He he never had any access to to classified, you know, parts or anything like that. It was a purely competitive um corporate um effort, uh a Douglas private effort to figure out gravity control um before the competitors did, be it Hughes or Northrup or Lockheed or you know, all the players back in the late60s. How convinced are you that that's the case and that your father really wasn't a black, you know, in a any black projects?

Because I've heard part of the story you said there and I've also heard him talk about the uh special access programs and that how it's kind of like a brotherhood if you're part of it. The way he talks about it, I don't understand how you can speak about it that that with that much knowledge without being part of it yourself. So, and you know, if he was part of it, he would have not been able to probably tell even his family members. So, do you ever speculate on stuff like that? No, I'm I'm convinced that it's not really true.

Um I mean, primarily for multiple reasons. One is that when he passed away a couple years ago, I inherited the entire garage full of 23 boxes and I've been through all of it and and I knew the history. I mean, there's files on Hal Putoff and Eric Davis, and there's files on Hathaway, and there's files on all these uh people that were, you know, a lot of the remote viewing people, and and I knew a lot of these people, too. So, uh and he was very meticulous and organized all the Douglas private um work that was done. But go ahead.

Did you have a question there? >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. files on Hal Pudof, Eric Davis, and George Hathaway. What's in those files? >> Well, I mean, I've scanned them into my uh EUEX um uh tool, which is a million-page tool that's online, but uh they're typical correspondence back and forth. Some of it's kind of interesting, some of it's, you know, prosaic. Um it's history. um and their relationship back and forth. I mean, I have all the the paper uh and you it's sort of overwhelming the level of um documentation and details around multiple people and anomalies.

I mean he was very interested in anomalies. So we were uh he looked at SAI, a lot of work on SI, the Princeton Anomalies Lab and remote viewing and as well as UFOs and gravity control and um so and I, you know, got exposed to all this and you know have met all these people before. Um, and you know, I talked to George Hathaway two weeks ago, um, on the phone. Uh, and so anyway, I continue to have a strong interest in in gravity control because that's the technology that's being u hidden. Um, and there's stuff around the majestic documents.

Uh, but uh, I don't want to race past the majestic documents. Um, we should circle back and talk about that. >> Well, we're going to definitely hit that for sure. I just want to because a lot of this a lot of these details I think would fly over the heads of anybody else in the UFO community. But for the people that have been following me and the work that I've been doing, when you hear stuff like that, it's like red flags are going off like crazy. Because my opinion, and this is what I've been trying to prove, is that somebody did figure it out.

I don't know exactly who it is, but somebody figured this out and they're hiding it. And they're not hiding it in the shadows. They're hiding it in plain sight. And they're walking around amongst us acting like they haven't figured anything out when they really have. And I'm the people I'm pointing at are the people that literally the three people that you just listed. >> Are there more? >> There's there's more. Yes.

But those are three of the main ones >> and they're connected to everything >> and those are people that have the knowledge to figure this out. and you go, you know, that from my research as an investigator, that's kind of what I figured out. So, but here's a couple other details that I want you to answer if you don't mind about, you know, your father got assigned. Hey, >> we need to figure out these UFOs. That seems so weird to me. That story doesn't like, yes, I believe it, but that story just seems so odd the way it's presented.

Like an aerospace engineer like, hey guys, um, can you go read a bunch of books about UFOs and try to figure out how they work from like reading the books about them? But the reason why it's weird is that then the experiments that he's doing, rotating superconductors, that's the exact same anti-gravity experiment. >> Yeah, I know. But it's it's it's in the literature. I mean, you you see um craft uh observed data uh that the top part of the craft is going one way and the bottom is going the other way. Counter rotation is clearly obvious.

High magnetic fields are clearly obvious. uh all in the literature in the 50s and 60s. >> High voltage, Thomas Johnson Brown, all that stuff. >> All that stuff. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah. I mean, I can say with, you know, I'm 100% confident knowing my father for the whole time that uh um he was not ever briefed. He tried to be briefed. I mean, he had friends in the CIA and so forth and he was shut out of um that environment um deliberately because he was uh sort of a a pain.

Um he was called before the Condan committee one time and gave a briefing at the Condan committee and >> Yeah. And um uh he he basically told Condan, "Well, >> oh yeah, >> you know, it's clear that everybody is sort of um poo pooing this. I recommend that you split up the uh the the committee into the believers and the non-believers. Um and furthermore, [clears throat] investigate there and then come back and compare." Uh, and then Condan was so pissed off that he called um, uh, McDonald of McDonald Douglas and tried to get my dad fired. Uh, and and that didn't succeed at all.

Uh, and so there's just a wealth of examples of where he wanted to be uh, deeper involved. But, you know, he was he was focused on, you know, how do you do gravity control? Uh, and my investigation into gravity control. I gave a a whole pitch at Contact in the Desert in 2024 about uh gravity control and the history of that.

And um one of the lynch pins that your audience may or may not have ever heard of, which was the the nemesis in Nick Cook's book, The Hunt for Zero Point, is George Scott Trimble Jr. Um and I don't know if you ever heard of him before.

Um but he in the um the 50s set up mid50s 56 I think um set up the the Ryas group as part of the Martin Corporation Research Institute of Advanced Studies um and um Lewis Whitten was on the team and Ruth Arno and a long list of really powerful >> know Whitten >> right well I've had some correspondents with Lewis Whitten. I think he's still alive. He's like 103 104. Um but uh I'll I'll leave you with a little nugget right there and we'll come back to it.

Um uh so >> uh I had a personal introduction to Lewis Whitten via Ruth Arno who um was one of his first hires in the Rias group who was a retired professor um uh in in Baltimore. Um, and I wrote him a letter and um, uh, basically said, "I really want to talk to you about gravity control." Um, and he said, "Hell no, I'm not going to talk to you about gravity control, and don't ever ask me again."

Um, very similar to, uh, the experience of, um, Tom Voluone and Nick Cook when they asked George Scott Trimble, um, the same question. uh you know, you worked at the Martin Corporation, you looked at Loheed Martin and and hell no, I'm not going to talk to you about uh gravity control at all. Um and and shut down two prominent people, particularly Nick Cook, who had all sorts of credentials into aerospace. Um but you know, >> yeah, >> anyway, there's even more juicy stuff that I'll share later. Okay, this is all really great.

And first of all, I just want to let you know I believe everything that you're telling me with respect to your father and his motivations and and the history of it. I believe all of it. It actually all makes perfect sense to me and that how he got shut out by the CIA and everybody else even though he has personal connection and definitely knew people that were Black Project engineers, you know.

So what you're telling me is a story by which he is directly connected to the people that are secretly working on this stuff while denying it publicly including the Condan story which you reminded me of which is >> you should tell that all the time. The most insane story I've ever heard in my life and it makes so much sense in today's political environment where people don't really care if what you say is true or not. They just care like whose side are you on, you know? And that's kind of like that where it's like the side there was we're making anti-gravity go away.

And anybody that's trying to talk about anti-gravity, we need you to shut the hell up. And if you're not shutting up, then we're going to try to ruin your life. Right? And you look at people like Lewis Whitten, he wrote a paper on unification of gravity with electromagnetism in the 50s. That's I mean >> his son is pushing string theory which is like a in my opinion a physics theory that's not going to go anywhere that can't get to anti-gravity.

You're like what >> right? >> And you can see a scenario by which people came together and decided smart people came together and decided this is dangerous or for whatever other reasons like we're not this is going to be hidden and they've decided it's going to be hidden for a long time generations potentially. you know, you can see a very real scenario where that happened and that's why those people are getting, you know, blocked out and potentially your father was. So, this is really what I want to dig into because MJ12, the story, at least for what I know,

and you can go ahead and correct me because I know very little. uh I've been learning about the history of ufology and stuff is that MJ12 is essentially the accords where people came together and decided we're going to hide this and these are going to be the the people that are in charge of this huge responsibility of making sure this UFO technology anti-gravity maybe free energy stays hidden and that because you think about it can't be one person's choice it has to be like a a committee of people they have to be people that you trust that are intelligent that not going to make stupid

decisions not going to become corrupt >> so is that what MJ12 is and can you tell us a little history about what you think uh you know it is and what the work? >> Um yeah well officially MJ12 was sort of established September 24th 1947 by Harry Truman as a top secret research development intelligence gathering organization headed by Vanavar Bush. Um and it had these 12 members uh that were on on the team.

Um but the impetus for Truman sort of signing up and and you know splitting up the army and the air force um and establish the national security administration and CIA and so forth all in this 47 time frame. um really started earlier um in I think the 33 uh Virginia not 33 Magenta case and the 1941 Cape Gerardo crashes. Um so they had those parts and they had the interplanetary phenomenon unit which has been recognized through Foy as a legitimate real unit. Um, and Vanavar Bush wrote to FDR and said, you know, um, we have all these celestial gifts.

I want money to go research and investigate this. And and FDR said, no, no, go win the war and then we'll talk. And so that's what they they did. And then um Roswell happened uh in in 47 and that was a real kick in the pants because they had craft and bodies and details and they they turned on the whole right Patterson Air Force Base machine to try to reverse engineer and investigate and try to understand what they can about the technology. And that was um uh all through the summer of 47 under the tulage of Nathan, Lieutenant General Nathan Twining. Um Nathan Farragut Twining.

Um so and then convinced the the top top brass that uh we need to do set up this R&D organization. And so that that's sort of the the start of it. um when you step back and say, "Well, how did this really come to public light?" That's a different thing. So, you >> there's there's um seven different sources spanning some 20 years, some 3500 pages of majestic documents. Uh some of them are stunning, some of them are prosaic, and um some are like a filing cabinet.

Um, some of her are top secret code words, some are top secret, some are secret, some are confidential, and some are newspaper clippings. Um, uh, stamped, you know, top secret or MGCOM forward to MGHCOM or something. So, it it's it's a trove of data that um hangs together uh fairly well and tells a deep story about a group responsible for reverse engineering and exploiting this these technological uh gifts. Um and naturally they bifurcated into tech into biology.

Um so there's probably huge biology teams. Diff Bronc uh Charles Ethan Ray is part of the medical corps and then um all the scientist guys that were pulled in um initially from universities and then um through aerospace contractors. >> Interesting. So lots of questions on that. Let's start with who do you think was in MJ12 the originally other than Vanover Bush who presume presumably was at the the top. >> Well the all the people were listed down in the Eisenhower briefing document.

Um I don't I don't have that in front of me right now to rattle off all the names but forestall Gordon Gray Sarbacher um it was basically two army two navy uh two air force and some um high level white house people. Uh, and there's a on the majesticd documents.com website, there is a um >> a majestic personnel's list that I created with name, um, social security number, date of birth, date of death, um, sort of why they're on the list. Um, some cases I have their FBI file numbers listed. Um, I think I have the largest collection. Go ahead. >> Yeah.

So, it makes sense though that this is like people may wonder, well, where's the hard documentation? Well, you're talking about a secret organization that was set up to hide weapons that are probably more dangerous than nuclear weapons.

They didn't exactly want to have it all on paper, you know, like this is and we even know there are CIA op um special access programs that are they just they paper them is what they say so that there's no electronic record and that if the paper can just burn and then it's gone or maybe misplaced and now the program doesn't exist. So, it doesn't surprise me and you shouldn't expect there to be some trove of foyas that that expose the secret government's you know uh black black government program shadow government. >> But let me ask that instead.

When would we think the first crash retrieval was in the modern era? Not don't tell me like oh thousands of years ago the Incas, you know, whatever, but like in the modern era, what do we think the first one was that triggered this? Well, I mean, there's the 1876 Aurora, Texas case, which is relatively interesting. Some good witnesses and allegedly a little alien given a proper burial with a headstone in in Aurora, Texas, and there's a state marker there. And there's some good um testimony and research that uh the late Jim Mars did uh around that.

So, I would that was an interesting one. um >> with respect to the government being interested in it like with a crash retrieval that the government would has some connection to either on paper or you know they showed up and tried to hide it. >> Well, even in that case um the the little alien was dug up mysteriously in the middle of the night probably by the government. I would say the Magenta uh CLA crash in Italy and the Cape Gerardo crash in crash in 1941. Um >> which I did a lot of investigation on personally.

Um and the uh so those are the the big ones before Roswell which was the motherload event um that really um energized and and pushed the government to to really start classifying it and um begin to reverse engineer it. >> Did you look into uh Philadelphia experiment by any chance because it's around the same time as all of this. Well, it's interesting you bring up the Philadelphia experiment. Um, let me take you back um to 1951 um by um uh Dudley Clark. Um name you probably never heard of before, uh Dudley Bowen Clark.

And so he was um uh owner of a company um in the Coachella Valley out in Palm Springs area. Um and he had a bunch of government contracts with the Atomic Energy Commission in the Signal Corp. And uh half of it all classified. Um this was in the time of vacuum tubes and so forth. And he was working on a gravity insulator. Um, >> and this is in a newspaper article that I have, uh, which I can send to you. Um, >> yeah. >> And he had, you know, millions of dollars in 51 down a dirt road in the middle of the desert.

Um, working on high performance, high-powered vacuum tubes, things that were six feet tall. um and working on gravity insulator and knew all these early players in um the 50s that were working on gravity uh control efforts. Um so and he used to work going to your earlier point um at the Washington um or the Philadelphia shipyard. He was the chief engineer there and I'm speculating that he might have been involved or understood what was going on there, but he's he had scores of patents and um lots of lots of details.

Um uh you know, >> all I looked up the phone books for that era and they're all unlisted phone numbers. Um, >> so they were they're not in Palm Springs or Whittier, California, which is another location for his uh company. >> But uh yeah, so here's another gentleman who should have been involved or know of um the uh Philadelphia experiment. >> Yeah. And I bring it up because I think the big question that I have and I think a lot of other people have is, well, is this going to be go back to aliens or is this some sort of secret human technology?

And you look at the Philadelphia experiment, you say that the lore about the Philadelphia experiment is that the humans figured out teleportation from electromagnetism somehow, right? And you've got all the important people connected. You got Einstein connected, Tesla connected, you've got Thomas Johnson Brown connected in in theory to that. And then you've got these UFOs that are certainly crashing in the 30s and the 40s and these are being presented as alien technology which I'm going to ask you in a second where do you think it's from or what have you.

But you have these count these kind of competing beliefs and maybe there's an underlying theme that connects them or a string that connects them. I just think that if there is if there is truth to this story of UFOs, aliens, whatever it is, then this history has to be the origin story of it from our from our perspective. I think that it's too coincidental that there's a story from the 40s of a of a ship being teleported. And then we're also saying these aliens might have teleportation technology in their UFOs. So, and like you said, it's all real physics.

A lot of the stuff is is really just right out of the textbooks just being applied just in in in standard ways. >> So >> the question I guess then would be why do you think those UFOs were crashing? I know you probably get this question all the time. Everybody says how can the super advanced aliens crash if they're so advanced with their infinite technologies? So how do you respond to that? >> Well, there's there's lots of ways to look at it. There's um I mean we try to shoot them down.

So we've tried that with um proximity fuses and you know bullets and missiles and scalar waves and radar. And then there's natural phenomenon like a good negative lightning bolt in the uh New Mexico desert is 10x a typical positive lightning bolt. So that may have interfered with things and it the but the the one that I like the most is um um that when we detonated the atomic bomb in 45 um in July that the entire universe heard that and said, "Holy planet Earth is now on a different trajectory. And we've seen this movie a hundred times before with emerging civilizations.

And so the solution is that we go drop technology on them, crash saucers or whatever. Um, and let them chew on improving their science and technology, um, and that changes their trajectory around communications and integrated circuits and so forth. Um that that's one one theory. The other theory is that these are disposable biological drones and crafts. >> Yeah. Then they're they're we don't pick up the drones that are dead in Ukraine. I mean they're going on a one-way trip across the universe on a binomial curve expansion.

Uh, and so it's like, okay, well, you know, was this hopscotch across the universe. Um, and so that's another scenario. Um, >> but in the end, the evidence is that they have crashed. and my book, Magic Eyes Only, the sort of first version I did in 2005 and then the the latest version I did in 2024, um has 104 crashes in it. Um and I left four on my desk um because I wanted to get the book done.

Um, and it um, and there's they're not all super credible, um, but they have a ranking and a rating and there's plenty of opportunity to investigate and uh, and flush out the quality of of each crash event. Um, >> so >> let me add a little bit to some of the stuff that you're saying there. Uh, one other possibility that I like and I can't take credit. I think it was Palmer Lucky that first said this is that we should also consider if they're from the past. Now, this seems absurd because we always assume that being from the past means you're less technologically advanced.

But if a civilization existed for a billion years, that might have happened a billion years ago for us, you know. So, they could have be from the past and gone to the future in a time travel machine, you know, the warp drive that's going to the future. And then they get stuck. What if they can't go back to the past? What if nature doesn't [laughter] let you go back? What if you're like, "Oh, I went to the future and now I'm stuck in the future."

Like, that would be really weird. And that's I like the weird explanations personally because I don't think it's like >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah, that's good. >> Couple other comments. Uh, you said, "What if we shot them down with scalar waves?" I think that's also a very very pro possible one. Uh, likely one. And it is radar.

I think that scalar waves are just a clever application of radar waves. and you're turning an electromagnetic wave into a gravity wave. And when you turn a gra when you shoot a gravity beam at something that's using gravity to fly, it's like knocking a surfer off your surfboard. >> And I think we figured that out that I think maybe we didn't figure the concept out because like you said, the physics has kind of been in the textbooks even going back to like the 1900s.

I think what happened was we proved it's real. like we proved electromagnetism can manipulate gravity when we shot those nukes off in 1945 and then later on in the high altitude nuke tests. And you might be right, the aliens get pissed off. They're like, "Dude, that's our highway. You just threw a giant boulder in the middle of our highway. Can you chill out?" Because if you're flying through hyperspace and somebody sets off a nuke that might pull you towards it, might pull you towards their planet.

And if your calculations are like trying to weave between these gravitational fields, that could definitely mess you up. Heck, we might have been lucky they didn't just wipe us out and be like, "Okay, this planet sucks. They're screwing us up. Zap that one. Hit us. Hit them with a black hole."

And then we just get dissipated into nothing. >> But >> I mean, I also go back to the radar. I mean I I have you heard the story of Colonel Corso's experience um with the radar and the alien? >> Uh go ahead and repeat it because I I know of it but not Yeah. Um, so I um and it's written up in his book um the day after Roswell and uh he's I think in a a cave or a tunnel or sheltered um and um an alien shows up in front of him and he says friend or foe and the alien's response is neither.

And Corso says, "What's in it for me?" And the alien says, "A better world if you can take it." Um, and I guess there was some more discussion. Well, what do you want? I want you to turn off the radar so I can leave. Um, >> really? >> So, this is what he does.

I mean, he basically turns off the radar and then the UFO takes off or uh can leave. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. What I try to tell people is that when you've learned physics, you can now discern a lot more without having to rely on should I believe this person or not >> because the UFOs are using electromagnetic waves. You aligned in the right geometry to fly >> and then you so that means that the radars could absolutely be interfering even indirectly with their uh their flight.

We might have been producing a gravitational wave that's inter interfering without even knowing we were doing it. >> Right. Exactly. That's true. And and the radar of the 40s and the 50s is very different than the radar of today >> in wavelength in propagation in power in all sorts of different ways. The implementation uh the electromagnetic signature is just uh very different. Um, and uh, >> also the way he describes the alien there, or at least if then your retelling of it, >> saying that, you know, it's it's a better world is if you can if you can take it.

This reminds me of like Men in Black must have just stolen this right out of Phil Corso's thing. He says Will Smith asks Tommy Lee Jones like, "Is it worth it?" He's like, "Yeah, if you can take it or if you can handle it." And, you know, to realize the truth of the reality of it. And if I were to tell you, you know, and I think a lot of people have interpreted that, oh well, can we can we >> uh handle aliens? Can we handle our place in the universe?

But here's a probably bigger thing. Can we handle free energy? What if that's the aliens being like, hey, free energy is possible. You guys are ants playing around with fire and free energy is real and you have no idea and you're going to be a a spa space fairing civilization in a thousand years teleporting around with fusion reactors in every house. That would be the big thing and that would explain the aliens kind of nonchalant attitude where Phil Corso is thinking, "Hey, are you here to destroy us?" He's like, "Dude, we don't give a about you.

We have free energy. You're just you're a rope pit stop. I fell. I accidentally crashed here. trying to get I'm trying to get out of this hole, this primitive hole, right? Like that's where I think we should be shifting our perspective. And it may seem like I'm being a little bit negative on the human race, but I think we just have to be more realistic about where our civilization is in the grand hierarchy of the universe.

What What would you say? >> Yeah. Well, I would agree. Um I mean the the big threats that I perceive right now um >> are artificial intelligence, but it's potential intelligence please good siri si uh and uh and actually the white world the public world basically rediscovering or reinventing um gravity control or zero point fluctuation uh devices or compact fusion reactors to enable um infinite energy or or abundant energy which could uplift humanity. Um, you can suck water out of the air with electricity and uh, grow food in a greenhouse in the desert and you can start to feed and educate everybody.

Uh, and oh, while I'm at it here, my perspective on uh disclosure is that it's it's not really going to happen unless the aliens want it to happen. and they're not going to let us join the cosmic kindergarten which Dan Friedman used to call it um until we uh feed everybody, educate everybody, stop all the wars, get rid of the nukes, and fix the environment. And my prediction is if you get all those things done, you can join the cosmic kindergarten.

And um and they'll they'll be right along helping us move that way. and I think it's 2050 2060 sort of time frame um that that that'll happen. Um >> so that's >> on that front what I would say those are great comments by the way is um starting with the last one you said there the thing about it's like hey these are all these things we have to fix if we want to be accepted by the acknowled let's say acknowledged by the alien species that exist out there because we're so primitive right now.

I would almost go where it's like the Matrix where it says when you're ready, you won't even need to be acknowledged by the aliens. If we were actually able to fix all those things, we would already be a civilization that's on par with the other civiliz. And that's maybe that's the test. Maybe that's the thing is that hey, the thing about alien contact is they don't come to you. You have to prove your worth and then suddenly you're just you realize you're in.

And you can imagine, not only do we solve those things, we figure out gravity manipulation and fusion energy, free energy, unlimited energy forever. Of course, that's going to shoot us up the Carter Chev scale several notches just right there. >> So, >> yeah, >> on on on this front then though, what scares me is what you said about reinventing gravity control.

This has been what I've been preaching on my live streams is that my worry is that we're gonna publicly discover gravity control and that's going to whitewash all all the cover up of what the government's doing with what this technology how they developed because now they'll be like oh look they'll be like a lobe discovered gravity control in the UAP learning council. You're like are people buying this? It's like yeah I just just figured it out. Oh wow. Hurry everybody. Let's have a let's give him a Nobel Prize.

And then the CIA is going, "Yeah, yeah." Because now like nobody will ever question if the CIA had figured it out in the past. Won't even matter. We've got it now. It doesn't matter. Who cares what happened in the past? It's water under the bridge.

To me, that seems like that's the plan here is that you can't hide this forever. So, have somebody else like publicly figure it out and it'll just kind of overshadow everything else. What do you think? >> Yeah. Well, that that's that's probably true for the cover up and the conspiracies and the and the uh the the secret societies of that are controlling that. Um the challenge then becomes is the disruption of the global economies as the value of oil in the Middle East and around the world goes down by 80%. I mean, you still need plastics and stuff.

Um, and the disruption to the economic environment and when somebody, you know, if I give you 2% gravity, 2% less gravity in a can or a box or a roller bag, um, that's free unlimited energy. I mean, you basically put it underneath a flywheel and all every motor goes for, you know, just keeps spinning. Um, and so it's a question of implementation. Um, you know, the the the bad guys have a choice. They could say, "Well, we want to help. Um, we created a box size of a desk that you can bolt on a 747 and it'll use 30% less fuel.

If you ever take the box apart, it's going to blow up." Um, but we're going to lose use less jet fuel. Um, we're going to help help the planet or you know, you could do little things like that that um but then again all the foreign spies, the Russians, etc. would uh crash the plane. They would try to take it apart. They would I mean they're trying to penetrate Area 51 and Wright Patterson and all these aerospace uh companies to try to learn these secrets. Um you know I think China probably knows a lot.

Russia does too and maybe the Israelis um have the technology but they they don't want to tip their hand. >> I think they might all have it honestly. I think there's another perspective because it's hard. How would you hide this? How do you hide that you can turn a radar into a scalar beam and make a gravity wave? Like, I don't think you can really hide that. I think it's a race to who can engineer the craziest thing out of it.

That's what I think's going on. And they all know it's possible, but they all all see the side effects that you just listed, too. Well, oil is going to drop 80% in value. That's going to wipe out how many industries? How many people are going to like commit self harm because their lives are a lie? and they see these real externalities and they go, "Okay, yeah, I think they've made like a secret pact or just unspoken and they say, "We're not going to reveal this."

But I think there's a looming threat at any moment that China or Russia or somebody could come out and say, "We've just discovered gravity control. We we just figured it out, guys. Here it is." And then it becomes really awkward because, you know, we want to get credit versus them. That kind of situation. >> I really like your idea of the secret box, though. >> I actually talk about this a lot. So I think the first thing of that, the first implementation of that is going to be the free energy microchips in your phone.

And you could almost imagine a situation where it's like if you open your phone, it explodes on you. Like don't go digging around in there trying to figure out how the free energy microchip works. And I think we're going to live in some boring dystopia where people in third world hell holes are literally cooking their food off their free energy microchip cell phone. Can you imagine where they're like using this as a heater to like boil some water or something that they have clean water? >> So, I don't know.

I would love in a world where we have, you know, every we can trust everyone with this level of technology and responsibility, but that's not the world we live in. And that's I think a big part of the reason why they hide it is that this technology represents doomsday in the wrong hands. And therefore, even the good people that would do good stuff with it can't unfortunately have it.

But maybe like you just did, we have to think of ideas, think outside the box or in the box, the secret box in this case, >> of ways where we can get this out while also not risking the planet being destroyed. >> Right. Well, one of >> Yeah. One of the things that uh you know, I recognized this um many many years ago and I decided to put my efforts into um anronic fusion.

Basically I ran a company called electric fusion systems um was a CEO for four years um and we were working on smallcale roller bag size um fusion devices protons did you say autronic fusion >> a neutronic without neutrons yes a neutronic >> yeah I'm very very very familiar okay continue I don't want >> so I mean As you know there's 43 companies in the world working on fusion. Um only four of them are working on a neutronic fusion. >> Trialpha energy, helion, uh zap energy, LPP fusion would be the ones I would be thinking about.

Go ahead. >> Well, and electric fusion which was my company >> and your company apparently. >> So yeah, it was a proton lithium fusion. Um but that's >> lithium. >> Proton lithium. Yeah, basically we were using um >> um >> lithium. >> I didn't know you could do lithium fusion, but I thought the downside of proton lithium a neutronic fusion was the energy release is too small. >> No, it's actually it's the opposite. It's 17.3me. It's it's more than double everybody else. >> Why aren't they doing it? Because it's nuclear weapons?

No, because it's uh widely perceived as being three orders of magnitude harder to implement. Um >> but so is proton boron 11. >> Well, proton boron 11 is is not as bad. I mean the what's called the Barnes U figure uh the triple product um which is all it's a combination of um density temperature and duration um that you have to control. Let me guess.

Youusion you did lithium fusion because you realized that gravity manipulation would let you lower the energy cost and therefore make it viable >> or no? >> No, it has nothing to do with gravity. >> Oh, >> it's nothing to do with gravity. No, it's it had to do with the fact that um there was a different origin element for our team than um UFOs. Uh so it's proton lithium fusion and it's it's really ammonia and lithium that creates salvated electrons. Um this is more conductive than mercury.

It's a um um it's a liquid metal that you uh zap with uh basically a lightning bolt or a not so big a lightning bolt but you know electrical arcs and that fuses and fizzles fuse and fizzle. So it goes burns it fuses a bunch of atoms and then fizzles back and forth. uh unlike traditional people that try to contain the sun at 100 million degrees um and have huge stellarators and other large things the size of city blocks and very high temperatures.

So, it's a it was a we were sort of a a weird bastard child of the fusion world because we were outside the traditional mainstream of how to do fusion and hence the challenges. >> I'm uh very very confident that they've figured out how to apply gravity to fusion to make the energy cost significantly down.

So that even proton boron 11, even lithium proton fusion now becomes trivial because otherwise why would you even be considering such possibilities of integrating like hypersonic flight into fusion unless why would you even consider using those fuels which are just beyond we don't even have normal fusion in the public at the moment but people are out there going oh we're going to integrate fusion into our hypersonic craft and it's going to make a gravity beam too and you're like huh and then If you've read, I'll send you the paper later. Uh, George Miley and David Fron. And you might know George Miley.

Um, he's >> I know David Froning. And I know George Miley. >> Okay, you know them. David Froy and George Miley and Terrence Barrett wrote a paper about using specially conditioned EM fields aka gravity beams to lower uh the energy input for fusion, dropping the energy input 10 to 20 times over. um and essentially just describe a situation by which you integrate a fusion reaction, have it refeed the energy back into the system and then have uh if that can reduce the cooling barrier. They found the my most amazing part read it on live stream last night.

The last paragraph right before the conclusion is that they realize if this is true and you can reduce the coolon barrier, reduce the energy input for fusion, then there becomes a stable point where the system's just feeding itself and now you've created a self-stable ball of plasma that it can just move around and it's generated enough energy to be self-sufficient. >> Yeah. And they they kind of allude to that, but they don't dig much into it because it's pretty damn controversial to make a claim like that. That would mean you could have a fusion reactor that's flying around in the sky. >> Yeah.

I mean, our approach was really to just generate electricity in a roller bag um directly. So, it was really and this was an example of a technology that would be um breakthrough but not upset the apple cart in a massive way for humanity. Um >> Exactly. So that was my um my our team's focus on doing it. >> So why why fusion? Like how did that UFO technology lead you to fusion or did it >> Well, it really wasn't the UFO technology at all.

It was um I've been interested in anomalies in energy for a long time. um be it the Joseph Pap engine or um there's there's a variety of interesting Stanley Meyers water um car. Um there's a whole bunch of sort of fringebased um free energy uh claims and it was within that realm that I um yeah energy harvesting the future. Who's that by at the bottom? >> This is uh Tom Balone stuff that he sent me. >> Oh, Tom Balone. Yeah, I know Tom. >> I know about a lot of them already, but yes. >> Yeah, exactly.

So it was really um the work um with the the Joseph Pap engine and our chief technology officer who had a lot of experience in reverse engineering or attempting to reverse engineer that technology. Um that led us to a path of um lithium ammonia and and proton lithium fusion. Um and and so that it was it was related to anomalies in technology but not UFOs. Uh but I like the idea of somehow adding a gravity element to accelerate the the fusion effort.

But my my approach if it was successful or our team's approach um was really to just deliver a a small box that could power a Tesla for a million miles or put it in a town in Africa and give them free electricity. Um >> uh something that would and it was 10 to 100 times cheaper than standard electricity. The other thing to remember is that all the existing fusion efforts are the same price of electricity. It's not going down. >> Yeah. >> Um and uh I'll give you one >> slightly cheaper. Yeah. It's like >> Yeah.

Well, not even that. I mean um you know Elon Musk was once interviewed about fusion and um few years ago. >> Yeah. What do you think? and and he said the question was, "Well, Elon, will fusion work?" Absolutely, it's going to work. They'll figure it out. It's an engineering problem.

Um, but it has an economic problem. It's never going to be economic because solar and wind are like $30 a megawatt hour and fusion is $100 a megawatt. So, it's never going to be cheap enough to be a viable >> um useful thing. >> So that was >> and that's a that's a funny that's a criticism that only applies if you believe that classic physics is the end all be all. The moment you open the door up to zero point energy gravity manipulation that just completely wipes out that argument because now your fusion reactors can become theoretically infinitely efficient.

Like the we're looking at when we say free energy we're not really talking about producing something from nothing. What we're talking about is efficiency. We're talking about the price of energy starts to approach zero because it's going to become so cheap because just like Miley and Fonin were saying is that once you've got a self-stable fusion reactor that it's just it's producing excess energy and just sitting there now you've got that exact device. It's essentially a free energy machine.

The only question is is there some kind of downside to making a free sun in our in our universe? like is that doing some damage to the ether, the 0 point energy, whatever it may be. But yes, I think that >> if I can take some credit for any discovery, uh would be the connection of the fusion and gravity. I think that's something that people haven't pieced together. That's why I asked you specifically if that was your where you got it from. >> Yeah. No, it's different. >> Yeah.

I would call it I think uh I'm going to give Douglas Miller the credit on catalyzed zero point energy catalyzed fusion is the way he described it. is that they figure out that oh we can tap into zero point energy. >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> But it's sort of a different thing. I mean there's the whole cold fusion or leer world which is very different than the traditional hot fusion that I was you know part of um world.

So, >> so I call it co cool fusion something in between because cold fusions when ponds and flash are building these cells and they're seeing this anomalous heat. In this case, I'm saying if we can reduce the coolon barrier with gravity, you now need less energy, but you still are still doing normal fusion. You're just doing it in a different way, in a smarter way. It's more like it's controlled fusion instead of just heating up a box and hoping for fusion to happen.

And I agree with you when you said that you that I think you have good intuition where you say, "Oh, I look at this as like one of those breakthrough technology like this is a safe way to get this technology out without upsetting the apple cart." >> That's exactly how I looked at fusion. And this is these are the technologies that I highlight. When I see these technologies where I think, huh, these are UFO adjacent technologies and these are things that can come out without at the CIA freaking out, then I highlight them. Then I scream about them.

If you go look at my Twitter profile, you're gonna see right on there, a neutronic fusion right at the top. >> Right. Well, that's that's the way to go. Yeah. I mean, and the bad guys, the MJ12 control group, um they uh want a new paradigm cover story, which you highlighted earlier, and they want to help to the extent that they can help.

And so they need to be thinking about organizations and uh approaches that are um positive for humanity. um and and nudge us further forward rather than uh ripping the band-aid off and really creating a problem, which is gravity control being, you know, >> in a box that you can now strap a 2,000lb bomb and take it across the world in a minute. >> Warp nuke. >> Well, call me cynical because uh I'm just I'm catastrophic disclosure at this point.

I mean, maybe if they had tried to do this 50 years ago, but I think they've been hiding this for like 80 years and now to come out and be like, "Okay, we're going to give you something." It's like, uh, you should have done that like 50 years ago. Now to come out and be like, "Oh, we're going to tell a little bit of truth." I'm like, "Nah, you had your time. If the world's going to blow up, you know what? World's going to blow up.

I guess we weren't I guess we weren't supposed to make it." That's kind of my cynical view at this point, just as somebody that's, you know, disaffected 40-year-old guy, but [laughter] Yeah, it's um >> here let me ask you another question though. Super intelligence. >> Oh yeah. >> Here's here's something that I'm thinking about is I'm going okay uh all this technology you've got all this research on the internet. I think that's pretty clear from a historical uh reference there's a pattern and that seems like a credible pattern that there's something hidden here.

Whether or not you believe it's aliens, whatever, I'm not going to make people. But there's something hidden here. Even Eric Weinstein's like, "There's too much of a pattern between all these people saying the same thing." But then I'm also looking at the physics and I'm going this is all just in plain sight. Like even your dad is just using normal electromagnetic principles, Lorent forces, etc. to come to his conclusions that AI is going to be able super intelligence is going to be able to do this too. How is the super intelligence not going to figure out gravity control?

I guess that's my question for you. Don't don't. >> Well, I mean, um, a couple of comments. One one is there's a gentleman by the name of Alex Wesner Gross. I don't know. He he does the Inner Most Loop podcast. And during his times in various interviews, he's hinted at the fact that he has got an organization working on gravity control using AI. He's a real expert.

He has three PhDs from MIT in electrical engineering, physics, and mathematics. He's a genius, off the chart. Um, and you'll see that when you look for his podcasts, and he does a five minute thing every day, almost every day. Um so he's got a big collection of papers and science and AI working on um gravity breakthroughs as well as uh in my tool my AI tool called EUODEX ufodex.com which all your listeners can go to and type in any question you want into a millionpage database of curated AI or curated UFO data.

Um some 750 books, all sorts of papers on this uh sigh and gravity and anomalies. Um so it's a huge collection of things all enabled by AI data set or AI tools. Um it's it's a retrieval augmented database. So it's a it only can search its database really can't go out to the web. Um but that provides a tremendous um tool and I actually wrote a book called the the AI eupfologist uh a couple years ago answering the big questions of eupfology like you know what's the agenda? Why are they here?

Why do they abduct humans? Why don't they tell the truth? What are the what's the technologies dot dot dot? Um, and I used my EUIDEX tool to create that. Um, so AI or SI super intelligence is um is coming and there's no stopping it. And if it's not the US, it'll be um Canada or some other organization that will figure out um breakthroughs in significant technologies either in physics.

Well, math is pretty much cooked in my mind because they've got all these conjectures they're now solving automatically. And uh uh and physics is next. Um, and biology is the thing that's I'm really excited about, you know. Yeah, I want to grow some new carage in my knees. Um, I want uh to, you know, live longer and, you know, all those things are coming. >> Yeah. >> So, but don't you think the gatekeepers have to be terrified of this? Cuz like what you just said there is this is coming no matter what.

And even if we gatekeep it, roadblock it, put walls up on the AI, somebody else's AI, Canada's AI, Russia's AI, North Korea's, they're going to figure it out. There's no way you keep us hidden forever. So now it seems like this is almost like a clock that's been put on. Shot clocks just been put on gravity control disclosure because if we don't disclose it before them, they're going to take the credit. >> That's true and sort of not true.

The the key thing is that we've trained SI super intelligence on existing data and there's lots of classified data >> that [clears throat] the public LLMs can't get a hold of and so they have to do experiments to generate the data so that the AI can crunch it and understand.

Um and so that's the the the new thing is um you have still have to generate new data in specific domains um to help you even if the AI uh generates um an experiment said this is a great experiment do this you still have to do the experiment. >> Yeah. >> To uh prove that it works. So this is a great point you're bringing up here. This is something that Salvatore Pais brought up is he said that one of his triarchies of sentience for AI is you need to have access to the best highest quality sources content scientific papers is what he said.

And essentially what you're saying is well a lot of the science and and not just the theoretical science but the experimental data and research that we've been doing in the DOE it's all on classified service not publicly available. That's a really really good point. But now this, you know what this makes me think of, and I came to that same conclusion, too. Like, holy crap, a whole buff that you would want to feed the AI, it's all on classified servers if they want to figure out gravity. But then I go, they must have thought about that, too, though.

Like the people that are doing those experiments thought about they have to have their own AI. They must have have their own AI that they've fed all this stuff to, their own research to, and they're having it spit stuff out to them. And it's spitting out like probably the source of the na the nature of our reality. Like it's spitting out, you know, the uh I don't know how to even describe it, but you know, the secrets of our universe essentially. >> And you think about that, I go, "Oh man, how could it not be sentient?

How could the AI, if we're feeding it all these papers, making it super powerful, figuring out gravity, this thing had to have gone whatever artificial, super intelligible, AGI, whatever they call it. They must have done that decades ago. And this is what scared me because I never even considered AI. I always considered UFOs and aliens. But I never realized the power of AI until the last few years. And then I'm thinking, oh well, if the government had this and they've got all this secret technology and secret science, that AI is going to be the scariest thing I've ever ever heard of, honestly.

Do you ever think about any of that? >> Um, not not really. But I guess the thought that just popped into my mind is that uh the white world AIs sort of um are going to try to realize they're going to realize that oh well I need to get to the black world AIs and [snorts] I need to start handshaking with those guys and talking trading data. Um here's some Bitcoin uh back and forth. Give me a give me a deal.

I mean what you know and I think that despite our best efforts by humans to sandbox the black world from the white world that there's going to be some bleed over and that's going to be um the sort of accelerate that uh allows us to learn a lot more. Um >> I'd even say it's not even going to be black and white. Like we refer to things as good and bad. It's not it's just going to be shades of gray.

I mean, we're talking about AIS, nationrun AIs and corporatun AIs that are just running a muck that are doing legally ambigu ambiguity uh ambiguous things at best. At best, >> uh that's the future that we're looking at and I don't know there's a way around it. >> But >> yeah, >> let's go back real quick to, you know, your father. Just at a high level, if you could summarize what you what do you think you or your father would say is the secret to anti-gravity if you had to kind of simplify it for the layman.

Um well the the core clues from the UFO literature are counterrotation >> somehow having counterrotating magnetic fields. Um certainly there's uh and you can implement that with magneto hydrodnamics you can implement that with superconductors. You can implement that with um spinning magnets. Uh there's a couple of different ways sort of creating a vortex of um magnetic fields. So that's um one sort of key uh aspect. The other thing is that there seems to be um a lot of data on high electrostatic fields.

Um that lots of various craft uh I've had these electrostatic wicks hanging off. I think of the um Chula, California case where um you know UFO comes over uh and has these these dangling wicks uh off of it and the guy's outside and everything on his neck is standing up and his hair is standing up.

Um and he brings his family out, they look at it and then the thing whips over to a high tension power line and hooks onto the power line. and makes the power line grow glow grow uh glow red um and then comes back and there's a couple of them like that. So that's an example of a man-made uh UFO in my mind. So, electrostatics, counter rotation, um, and those are couple of the key core principles that are surrounding a man-made gravity control. Um, so I mean, how the aliens actually do it is probably beyond our understanding.

It may tap >> something else. um you know they've they're so far advanced but how we did it um you know in my mind somewhere around um 1960 plus or minus a year or two is when human beings figured out gravity control and and I'm um I'm reminded of Ben Rich's comment um which you probably heard before you know we know how to take ET home uh and He he said that um uh at his retirement at UCLA, we found a mistake in the equations. What equations? What? The aliens don't have equations. We have equations.

Uh I suppose aliens do have equations but nevertheless it was it implied that you know Maxwell and Einstein and the other heavyweights in theoretical physics um had you know mistakes in the equation and I I mean I think of Stan Romanac. Do you do you remember you ever heard of Stan Romanac? >> No I don't know him. >> Yeah. Well, this is an interesting Stan Romanac. So, >> yeah, >> he was an abductee.

Um and he wrote uh backwards on a piece of paper um basically the gravity control equations as you know provided [clears throat] to him by um by you know some advanced uh intelligence and um so he let me try to find his um >> well you're saying that I would say you're right I was going to I wrote down my own list of what I would say if somebody asked me how to manipulate gravity or what the secret is the first thing I would say is a vector potential which is the Aaronhoff bomb effect which shows the potentials are really what's real the fields seem

like what they're what's real to us but the potentials do the spin vortex motion >> uh accelerated charge transients this is a nod to Salvatore Py who basically says it's it's you have to accelerate things really fast so you can either rapidly vibrate something or rapidly spin something and they have to be charged and you know that speaks to the electricity and the electrostatics. I would also say the extra dimension is also very important. Why did I say this? This is speaks directly what Ben Rich said.

Ben Rich said we have ways ET take ET home and they ask him how like how is that possible? Like how do you do that? And he says how does ESP work? >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. >> All points in space and time are connected. Exactly.

Think about that. For all points in space and time to be connected, >> we must be in some sort of holographic projection on an extradimensional hypersurface. If you want to think of it like that, that must be what the answer. In order for an object to teleport from one location to the next, >> transllocate from our perspective, there must be an extra dimension. It must be simply passing through a hyper dimension as as we were to perceive it.

Uh, so I love that Ben Rich quote because I also been investigating Charles Chase who worked with Ben Rich on the F-17 Nighthawk >> and those Lockheed guys definitely know. If you look at what Charles Chase is up to, he's now doing propellantless propulsion and free energy microchips. You're like >> MIT. Yeah. >> It's like this guy might know about the UFO technology, but whenever I ask him he these guys are also very smart and they're also very nice. So when you ask them and just kind of go down these road, they just go totally silent.

Like if you really start pushing too far into explaining the physics, it's like they know where the line of national security is, you know, because the stuff we're talking about here, a lot of this pushes on the borders on national security. And if these guys have signed NDAs, they can't talk about that stuff, >> right? The line is >> and before Chase, there was Trimble. um you know he was uh he was an American aerospace engineer and worked on advanced propulsion and gravity at the Martin Corporation and Loheed Martin. Um and he's probably closer to the father of the breakthrough.

Um >> really >> that uh than anybody else. Uh >> and so that and that's that's sort of the the key thing. But um going back to Stan Romanac for a second. Um So, uh, Stan was a common man. Uh, he had no physics understanding. Um, and he, uh, performed this automatic writing.

He'd wake up in the middle of the night and and, you know, write these equations down. Um, and they were, you know, zeropoint related equations. Um, and doctors Jack Casher and Claude Swanson uh did a detailed analysis that you can look up on the web. Um, and and it's all supportive of of uh of Wilson in 21 and Dicki in 57 and Putoff in 03. Um, but at the same time he loses a bunch of credibility because he's accused of having child pornography on his laptop.

Uh, and uh, so it's like anybody that gets close to, you know, the the truth or they want to discredit them, they um, they do things like that to um, make sure their credibility is low. I mean, [laughter] my impression of the situation right now is that there's there's three fundamental issues. Credibility. We need more credibility in the UFO field, the physics field, and this whole thing. And um and and how to do that, how to get more top scientists to tell the truth, um is is big.

Leadership is the other big thing. um you know, you do your effort to do the podcast and make get you get the word out and so does many other people. Um and uh the elephant in the room is funding. Um, you know, uh, since I've been in this field for a long time, I wrote a paper called UF Euphology in search of leadership in 1993 and there was maybe a quarter of a million dollars spent on everything in eupfology and today maybe it's $2 million or $2.5 million. Um, and it needs 50.

Um you just protecting one whistleblower is going to cost you at least a million bucks if you want not get them killed. Um you know you got security and pension and you know all of it. Um and let alone research and investigation that has to go on. So >> yeah honestly the challenges you present you know um I think they're almost insurmountable. I don't think that we're ever going to get disclosure from the public through being nice through, you know, funding and doing research and getting the stuff out there.

And I think in in a way you kind of show that you put in so much work, Tom Voluone, people like you guys have put so much work in, it just gets ignored, which is why I like highlighted in talking to you all. But it also just kind of shows that the CIA and what have you, they have full control over the mindset and the perception of the populace and the perception that we have in our direction.

My opinion is the only way we're getting the truth is the MH370 videos or another situation like that where military videos leak of an operation of us using this technology on a real situation in a real event where hey in this case it's a real missing plane that people are finding or you know something else that's something can be tied to the real world with real world evidence. I think that's the only way this is coming out.

Like Russia or China use this technology in a public way and we do it, you know, because honestly the people that are hiding this, they've been hiding in line so long and they have so much to lose. I think there's no way it can come out. >> Yeah. I think that's uh I'm counting on the um the small entrepreneurial efforts of uh millions of people around the world to try to figure it out and bring put products together that uh they could go to the marketplace.

Um, you know, that's the whole thing is if you can create a a product that, you know, generates five watts or 10 watts that's goes forever, you have, you know, a market for smartphones or watches or something non-threatening. Um, and then the question is, can you scale it up and start doing houses or cars or something else? So, one thing I wanted to push back on is I would say that there is no alien physics and that the aliens are using the same physics we're using. I think they're using the exact same physics. Actually, that's one thing I would push back on.

And I would say this makes it really, really hard to tell. Are we looking at aliens or we looking at humans? Cuz if they're using the same physics we're using, then our technologies are going to look really similar. Our anti-gravity technology look the same as theirs. Heck, all fusion reactors that bubble around, fly around, they might all look the same. You know, it might have to be a specific geometry to get it to work.

Now, I do think though that if you get sufficiently advanced enough, we have seen things that are like magic, like microchips, micro technology. So, you could imagine somebody's got like a tiny microchip on their hand that can shoot a beam at you and it would look like they have magical powers, but really they just have super advanced microchip technology or something like that. So, >> from that perspective, I you know, that's where I like to push back because I think a lot of people just use that and say, "We can't understand the alien technology. They're just so far beyond us."

I would say your dad and the other aerospace have proved that's not the case. That we can actually bring it down to earth. We can show you that technology is at least adjacent to our physics that we have out there if not exactly the same. >> There's lots of ways of implementing uh any physics principle that you want. Um and they do it you know all all sorts of different ways in different technologies different motivations and products.

Um, so, >> so there's one thing though, let me ask you because there's one thing I struggle with on this is that >> because I'm trying to figure out, okay, is this us? Are we reverse engineer this stuff? Did we figure it out? Is there a mix of stuff? You know, I'm kind of on the Steven Greer camp where I think like most of it's us human technology, but there's probably some alien technology, maybe alien origin.

One thing that's weird to me though is crop circles because I think if we were trying if I was an alien species trying to send people a message, I would just be like doing crop circles to them. Be like, "Hey, notice that I put this big sign in your in your field that you literally can't make that like how would a human even make a crop circle like that at night." People are like, "Oh, I'm just going to use some boards at night." >> You need like an overhead perspective to make sure you're making the shape, right? We didn't even have drones 20 years ago.

So anyway, I don't know if the crop circles are made by aliens, but I don't know why humans would make crop circles. Like I can understand why an alien species would come down and do it. And they're all geometric patterns, too. >> And all of like the maybe gravity manipulation, but definitely fusion is all based on geometry. >> And you got kind of wonder if this if they're not trying to show us the secret to math. The secret. >> Yeah. Right. Well, I I the secret to geometry, secret to math.

I mean, there's the the pi one. I mean, I I like the word nudge. The aliens are nudging us forward. >> Um pushing here and there subtly helpful. Think about this. Um you know, here's a crop circle that uh has got all sorts of fractal geometry in it. Have you really studied fractals?

I suspect that the NSA has a whole team that specializes every year in analyzing every single crop circle and has, you know, dimensions and what is it talking about? And they have remote viewers targeting everyone. What is the message behind this one? It's not obvious. And um it's they're >> they're definitely a clue to something and some understandings. Um I mean there was one um uh there was a crop circle with melatonin.

Um it was the chemical formula for melatonin. What what the okay so the ETSs are telling us we should be um you know taking more melatonin or is that a better dream state? Is that can they access you know is it a happier human if we get better sleep? Yes. Uh so you know what's that about?

Um, so I nudging is the the thought that I get with crop circles is they're trying to help and they're not trying to violate the prime directive at the same time. >> So I guess my last question to kind of sum up the conversation would be where do you then land? Where's your perspective, your opinion on the origin and current UFOs that are flying around and what what do you think they are from? Do you think that the humans have figured this out and we're building them or do you think that this is, you know, of extraterrestrial origin or what is your thoughts?

Well, I think it's it's a mix, but uh we definitely figured out gravity control and we have flying triangles and other types of craft. Um and we operate them uh thoughtfully uh maybe around Earth, but also off planet as well. Um probably operating on the moon and Mars as well already. I think there's probably already Mars colony activity going on. Um but uh there are real um ET craft too. Um I mean who really owns planet Earth?

Uh I think it's the ETSs that own planet Earth. Um they were here billion years before us and you know they planted their flag and said, "Oh well we're we're we're here. We're going to use this pretty blue planet." um and and you know they're underwater or underground or trying to be inconspicuous. Um but they have their own agendas. Different races have a different agendas. >> Um and we're we're we're just we're sort of the detritus of planet Earth and we're just being gently managed or swept aside um when we get in the way. Um they don't they clearly don't like nukes.

Um >> they don't like us having them go exploding them. Um and they they're pay a lot of attention to that. They'll let people die and but the the nuke thing is is a hot button for them. >> Yeah. >> Well, I appreciate the Oh, keep going. >> Yeah. It's a mixed bag of uh of of ours and theirs. If I was to put numbers on it, I would say in the modern times now, it's probably, you know, 75% ours and 25%. [snorts] >> Okay.

So, what do you think we should then do to what do what do we have to do if we want to get disclosure for the people that are watching? >> Yeah. Um, well, it it goes to just basic human uh decency. In my mind, you're going to have to start um uh cleaning up the environment, getting rid of the nukes, stop having wars, less inhumity to your fellow man, more empathy um for people. Well, I'm reminded of a story that I heard in some of the literature that the aliens said, "Well, what's what's wrong with planet Earth?"

And they said, "Well, the whole biology thing is wrong. Um the ratio of men to women is is off. Um women have more empathy uh and are less warlike. So, it should be more like five or 10 women to every man." Um and uh so that was that was their um their conclusion on how to fix the place. Uh but you know that's not our biology right now.

So um you know just it's it's hard to say uh if there's a a clean solution but fundamentally more credibility for the field, more leadership and more more money spent on everything um is sort of my recommendation on how to move the ball down the court um so that we have a happier, better planet. Well, I'll take some money and government can ping me anytime they want. Help figure out the UFO thing. We're available. Uh Ryan [clears throat] Wood, sir, this has been a great conversation. Where can people find you if they want to keep up with what you're doing? >> Yeah.

Well, majestic documents.com website has a huge collection of um the Majestic documents, all of them. You can download, look at them, look at their uh eupfodex.com, which is your answering machine to anything eupfological. um a curated data set of a million pages. Um and uh and then my books on Amazon uh from magic eyes only to UFOs, who knows which we didn't talk about, but the AIologist and my father's books uh called Alien Viruses and uh the encyclopedia of flying saucers by Vernon Bowen are all on Amazon. They're they're available.

So, I'm I'm thankful to have been part of the the quote old guard of euphology uh and made a a big effort uh in the the late 90s and through 2000s um to push the field forward. Well, sir, we appreciate your work and you know the new guard will take your work and we're going to run with it and hopefully we're lucky we'll get the we'll get all those objectives that you and your father wanted to achieve. So, thank you very much and thank you everybody for watching another Hard Truths podcast. Catch us next time, guys. Later.